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And please… let me make this clear before it gets taken the wrong way.

https://dragracingedge.com/the-blog/team-orders/
 
Posts: 154 | Location: Beaver Springs, PA | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oh boy. This ought to seriously stir things up. Especially as it relates to bracket racing. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1236 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The one problem I see with his story is he is comparing drag racing to team sports such as baseball or basketball where you can’t win with one person.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One owner, Shared sponsor, multiple cars, multiple drivers to me qualifies as a Team. ? I do see your point about one care vs multiple.

Tom, was going to post the same thing! Lol.


Raceless in California!
 
Posts: 4525 | Location: Vacaville  | Registered: January 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The BIG issue in comparing sacrificing oneself for the greater good of advancing the team as compared to "team sports" is that drag racing is not really a "team sport" as it is vastly composed of individuals competing against one another and not multi car teams that leverage the system to their unfair advantage. It sucks, plain and simple and don't try to sugar coat it by making it seem alright.
 
Posts: 40 | Location: East TN | Registered: December 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As long as the sanctioning bodies allow multi car teams auto racing will be a team sport.


Meziere Tech.
Make sure your water pump is on whenever you check your coolant level.
 
Posts: 244 | Location: Escondido | Registered: July 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You're given a set of rules and you then use them to benefit yourself or your team.
 
Posts: 1473 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by consistent spin:
The BIG issue in comparing sacrificing oneself for the greater good of advancing the team as compared to "team sports" is that drag racing is not really a "team sport" as it is vastly composed of individuals competing against one another and not multi car teams that leverage the system to their unfair advantage. It sucks, plain and simple and don't try to sugar coat it by making it seem alright.


This pretty much says it for me. It's the reason I have paid absolutely no attention to professional drag racing for years. Even though NHRA says multi-car teams are okay, in my view, it's reduced unlimited drag racing to the level of professional rassling.

Give your pals all the help they need until they line up next to you on the start line. At that point it's time to kick ask. It's old fashioned but, so am I.


nomad
Bruce Guertin


Easily distracted by bright shiny objects.

Wife says I'm a new adventure every day.


Call Automotive Performance Engines for all your complete engine building, dyno service needs 863-967-8781
 
Posts: 2546 | Location: Auburndale, Florida | Registered: October 19, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If it was truely a team sport then each team would have the same number of players. It is an individual sport with some individuals grouping up to help other individuals for whatever reason that should be.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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team
A group of people with a full set of complementary skills required to complete a task, job, or project.
Team members (1) operate with a high degree of interdependence, (2) share authority and responsibility for self-management, (3) are accountable for the collective performance, and (4) work toward a common goal and shared rewards(s). A team becomes more than just a collection of people when a strong sense of mutual commitment creates synergy, thus generating performance greater than the sum of the performance of its individual members.


Raceless in California!
 
Posts: 4525 | Location: Vacaville  | Registered: January 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by nomad:
quote:
Originally posted by consistent spin:
The BIG issue in comparing sacrificing oneself for the greater good of advancing the team as compared to "team sports" is that drag racing is not really a "team sport" as it is vastly composed of individuals competing against one another and not multi car teams that leverage the system to their unfair advantage. It sucks, plain and simple and don't try to sugar coat it by making it seem alright.


This pretty much says it for me. It's the reason I have paid absolutely no attention to professional drag racing for years. Even though NHRA says multi-car teams are okay, in my view, it's reduced unlimited drag racing to the level of professional rassling.

Give your pals all the help they need until they line up next to you on the start line. At that point it's time to kick ask. It's old fashioned but, so am I.


All Professional auto racing has been dead to me for year, for alot reason this being 1 of them.


Meziere Tech.
Make sure your water pump is on whenever you check your coolant level.
 
Posts: 244 | Location: Escondido | Registered: July 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by green1:
If it was truely a team sport then each team would have the same number of players. It is an individual sport with some individuals grouping up to help other individuals for whatever reason that should be.


Ahh but in this case, the size of the team is dependent on the size of the funding. Just because it isn't regulated doesn't mean teams aren't involved.
Pandora's box was opened and there is no stuffing it back in now. You have to admit that multi car teams have kept the fuel classes alive. Names like Schumaker, Force and Kalita have kept multiple cars filling the fields for, well, decades. It has been both the life blood and probably the acceleration to destruction of the classes. It is now so expensive (in part due to these multi car teams) to field a car that it doesn't make sense for most sponsors.

But I digress. Once you open it up to multiple teams, you get what you get. We can all shake our heads and say we know what happened. But unless you can climb inside John Force's head (have fun in there!), there is no way to know what his intentions were. There is a movement today politically to convict people based on what others think his intentions were when he made this or that decision. Wow! Now the thought police are involved. Not only can't you think an inappropriate/politically incorrect thought....If I think you thought one, you are in trouble! LOL. Today cracks me up!

There is no sense making rules about teams. You can't enforce something when you can't even come close to proving anything.
If the raw experience of 10k horsepower and everything that comes with it including the jockeys slapping the crap out of each other at the big end....doesn't entertain you, then don't watch it. There are no changes NHRA can make that will make it great for you.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6418 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 1leg:
quote:
Originally posted by nomad:
quote:
Originally posted by consistent spin:
The BIG issue in comparing sacrificing oneself for the greater good of advancing the team as compared to "team sports" is that drag racing is not really a "team sport" as it is vastly composed of individuals competing against one another and not multi car teams that leverage the system to their unfair advantage. It sucks, plain and simple and don't try to sugar coat it by making it seem alright.


This pretty much says it for me. It's the reason I have paid absolutely no attention to professional drag racing for years. Even though NHRA says multi-car teams are okay, in my view, it's reduced unlimited drag racing to the level of professional rassling.

Give your pals all the help they need until they line up next to you on the start line. At that point it's time to kick ask. It's old fashioned but, so am I.


All Professional auto racing has been dead to me for year, for alot reason this being 1 of them.


It's funny this comes up. For some reason, this season our track made a change to how they pull cars. Instead of chipping, which they have done for probably 15+ years, they just started taking the pairs as they lined up in the staging lanes. I asked track leadership why the change was made, and they said that there were some complaints that the races weren't moving fast enough and they wanted so speed up cars coming out of the lanes. Now, the staging lanes have NEVER been the bottleneck. But I asked them if they knew why this track started chipping. They had no idea. (This is where becoming a geezer has its advantages) It's because particularly later in the season when some racers were in the hunt for the championship and others not so much, buddies would pair up in the pits and roll into the lanes so they would pull each other, particularly first round. If it were first round, the higher ranked would pay for the other's buy back and the other would turn on the red bulb. Later in rounds, there were all sorts of deals. It was all rather bu11sh1t. There were a lot of complaints, and the track owner for a few races planted himself at the entrance to the staging lanes and split cars up....or tried. It was a circus. Everyone was mad about everything. So they started chipping and all that went away for 15 years. For many of the racers, earning the win had lost its value. If they bought a buddy's buyback or took a dive for someone....it had become justified as part of the game. Some of us would have nothing to do with it, and I swear some would get mad at us for not going along! LOL. People!


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6418 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:


It's funny this comes up. For some reason, this season our track made a change to how they pull cars. Instead of chipping, which they have done for probably 15+ years, they just started taking the pairs as they lined up in the staging lanes. I asked track leadership why the change was made, and they said that there were some complaints that the races weren't moving fast enough and they wanted so speed up cars coming out of the lanes. Now, the staging lanes have NEVER been the bottleneck. But I asked them if they knew why this track started chipping. They had no idea. (This is where becoming a geezer has its advantages) It's because particularly later in the season when some racers were in the hunt for the championship and others not so much, buddies would pair up in the pits and roll into the lanes so they would pull each other, particularly first round. If it were first round, the higher ranked would pay for the other's buy back and the other would turn on the red bulb. Later in rounds, there were all sorts of deals. It was all rather bu11sh1t. There were a lot of complaints, and the track owner for a few races planted himself at the entrance to the staging lanes and split cars up....or tried. It was a circus. Everyone was mad about everything. So they started chipping and all that went away for 15 years. For many of the racers, earning the win had lost its value. If they bought a buddy's buyback or took a dive for someone....it had become justified as part of the game. Some of us would have nothing to do with it, and I swear some would get mad at us for not going along! LOL. People!



One track I frequent had a good way to stop the early round gifting of round wins. First off, they called only the folks who were in the points up, then they called up the rest of the field. Not only that, they brought cards to the first of the lanes. First, a single card was pulled. This determined which lane would be effected. Next, from an Ace, Two, and Three, a single card was pulled. This determined "how many". If the left lane card was pulled and the Two (deuce) card was pulled, the first two cars from the left lane were required to circle back around to the rear of the staging lanes. This was all done because of exactly what you described. A guy was bringing people with him and they would pair up. He actually won the track championship doing it. Unfortunately, the track doesn't bother doing it anymore. It was probably too much trouble and folks were (are?) considering it fair game nowadays.

Someone has mentioned there is no specific rule against it (that I know of). But just as there is no rule against buying round wins (b*ybacks), I think they are wrong and will not participate in them. You really are the only person you can control. "Splitting" the cost of b*ybacks is now common place everywhere I run. Nobody gives it a second thought. And places where there are first or second round b*ybacks, nobody cares that the guy who lost first round, always seems to win second round (if his second round opponent didn't also lose in the first round). In fact, many folks are now upset if your points stop after you have lost a round! Everything has been allowed to become common place. That is, except for cutting the purse. When/if that happens, you would think it was the end of the frickin' world. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1236 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Blocking to protect his teams lead is what killed Dale Earnhardt.
Doesn't apply to us but 'team' racing isn't always a great idea.
 
Posts: 606 | Location: Lakewood, Co. | Registered: January 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:

It's funny this comes up. For some reason, this season our track made a change to how they pull cars. Instead of chipping, which they have done for probably 15+ years, they just started taking the pairs as they lined up in the staging lanes. I asked track leadership why the change was made, and they said that there were some complaints that the races weren't moving fast enough and they wanted so speed up cars coming out of the lanes. Now, the staging lanes have NEVER been the bottleneck. But I asked them if they knew why this track started chipping. They had no idea. (This is where becoming a geezer has its advantages) It's because particularly later in the season when some racers were in the hunt for the championship and others not so much, buddies would pair up in the pits and roll into the lanes so they would pull each other, particularly first round. If it were first round, the higher ranked would pay for the other's buy back and the other would turn on the red bulb. Later in rounds, there were all sorts of deals. It was all rather bu11sh1t. There were a lot of complaints, and the track owner for a few races planted himself at the entrance to the staging lanes and split cars up....or tried. It was a circus. Everyone was mad about everything. So they started chipping and all that went away for 15 years. For many of the racers, earning the win had lost its value. If they bought a buddy's buyback or took a dive for someone....it had become justified as part of the game. Some of us would have nothing to do with it, and I swear some would get mad at us for not going along! LOL. People!


This is what is called a disfunctional hierarchy. In a functional hierarchy the leaders lead by example. The leaders being the points leaders. They are at the top of the hierarchy in deed, no shenanigans. What happens is those under the leaders at the top of the hierarchy earn their way into the hierarchy by their deeds, no shenanigans. So what happens is everyone ends up trying to out do each other in doing the right thing in order to maintain their position in the Hierarchy. This is also a picture of a what a first world country-civilization is supposed look like and function. Conservative - Belief in traditional values > Integrity

A disfunctional hierarchy you're speaking of is the opposite. This is a picture of a third world civilization-country where everyone is trying to get away with anything they can by hook or by crook. Cozying up for favors. Plotting and planning how to beat the system and assume complete control for a hierarchy of underhandedness, with the most underhanded at the top. Liberal - Willing to discard traditional values.

The track I raced Sunshine Dragstrip, everyone was trying to do the right thing. That was the competition, who was gonna race clean and lead/win. Earn it clean.

I think it was just the residual nature of the place, left behind by Art Malone rip.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Rietow,
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"team orders", fellow racers helping another etc. has been around (and will continue to be around) for years, one thing in the last several years as far as NHRA is concerned is the countdown, take the infamous Force/Pedergon "brawl" the only reason that happend was because Robert (or which ever Force car it was) would not advance to the countdown if he lost.. now i do not know if John actually "purposely" lost (and if he did i wouldn't blame him he was helping his teammate at a chance for a championship) but the real issue was or is NHRA for coming up with a points system that would "allow it and/or give a chance for that to happen". as for the lower levels of racing (bracket racing inparticular) I've seen/heard of numerous racers running their buddie & purposely losing and/or running the 2nd or 3rd place racer, one racer waiting at back of staging lanes for another racer etc. i do remember one track owner years ago, going down to the staging lanes and making people get out of line & run someone else if they were doing this.. all that being said.. do i hate it? no do i like it? not exactly but theres no real true way of preventing so.. "it is what it is" i reckon lol Wink


J.K. Hodges
 
Posts: 46 | Location: Eastern NC | Registered: June 11, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by green1:
If it was truely a team sport then each team would have the same number of players. It is an individual sport with some individuals grouping up to help other individuals for whatever reason that should be.


I agree, you can't compare team sports like baseball or basketball to individual sports like weight lifting or drag racing. If you pretend to not be able to lift a certain weight in order for a teammate on your weightlifting team to win a championship, that's not advancing a runner. That's taking a dive or throwing a competition. I think if you work for a guy you respect, you wouldn't respect him most likely, if he had to tell you to lose a race, in order for him to seal the deal on a championship you're not even involved in. And you're not gonna respect yourself if you don't know what to do. Nobody has gotta say anything.

A better comparison for advancing a runner would be the approach Anderson took IMO. The bunt was exceptional, Anderson was just slow, so they opted to just throw him out at first base.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Weren't there some PS teammates that trailered the teams superstar and weren't on the team after that?
 
Posts: 1473 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have seen lots of comments from many folks on here in the several years since I joined the forum that still do not understand the difference between racing for fun at the bracket or sportsman level and racing for and as a business at the pro level.

At the bracket racing level whether we win a championship has very little if any bearing on if we do or do not race the following year.

At the pro level the tables are turned and winning or losing a championship can be the difference between a sponsor or owner fielding or parking a car the following year. A owner who fields multiple cars is very well aware of this and will do whatever it takes to keep his sponsors on board so all of his cars are on the track for the following year.

I think the countdown is a total disaster that forces teams into making more of these ugly decisions than the old points system did. It just needs to go away.

Joe
 
Posts: 457 | Location: coquille,or | Registered: November 18, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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