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This is a big deal. M.O. Dion & Sons is the largest racing fuels distributor on the West Coast and my understanding was one of the largest VP distributors period.

The lawsuit they have filed, in a nut shell alleges VP was knowingly selling below octane fuels to it's customers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DragRaceResults,

OMG.

I have purchased a lot of VP C-15 from Dion and Sons in San Diego. My son Mike buys Alky from them as well but under the F&L Brand.

Next, guess it's back to Sunoco Maximal or stay with VP and buy it at the track.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by RPROGAS:
Next, guess it's back to Sunoco Maximal or stay with VP and buy it at the track.

Do you think VP is selling different fuel to the track than they were selling to the dealer?

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by RPROGAS:
Next, guess it's back to Sunoco Maximal or stay with VP and buy it at the track.

Do you think VP is selling different fuel to the track than they were selling to the dealer?

If it were me, I would continue to buy from the dealer that stuck its neck out for me by trying to stop a fraudulent company. But that’s just me. I’m sure they carry other brands of fuel that would fit your needs.

I was wondering actually if Q16 was involved. Sure was.On the page of switching from MTBE to ETBE on the OXY fuels.

VP is the Manufacturer and Dion and Sons was the Master Distributor.

At this point it's difficult to know that the VP fuel you buy, either from Dion and Sons, or at the track is the blend advertise (particularly any VP purchased on the West Coast). I's possible that Dion and Sons supplied VP Fuels to a variety of what is considered normal "Retailers" and possibly sold fuel to tracks as well.

I gather from the "Philadelphia lawyer" language of the suit that Dion was adulterating the different VP blends to maximize profits (I took that to mean C10, or whatever as a possible example blended with C14). In doing so they (Dion) advertised and sold VP fuel as UN-adulterated VP.

If I got that wrong someone please correct me.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by RPROGAS:
VP is the Manufacturer and Dion and Sons was the Master Distributor.

At this point it's difficult to know that the VP fuel you buy, either from Dion and Sons, or at the track is the blend advertise (particularly any VP purchased on the West Coast). I's possible that Dion and Sons supplied VP Fuels to a variety of what is considered normal "Retailers" and possibly sold fuel to tracks as well.

I gather from the "Philadelphia lawyer" language of the suit that Dion was adulterating the different VP blends to maximize profits (I took that to mean C10, or whatever as a possible example blended with C14). In doing so they (Dion) advertised and sold VP fuel as UN-adulterated VP.

If I got that wrong someone please correct me.

Bob

Whoa, Bob. Dion is the plaintiff in the suit. They are suing VP because VP was (allegedly) giving them fuel that was not up to snuff. Dion was unknowingly then passing the 'bad' fuel on to its customers.

If this suit truly has merit, Dion would be the good guys here.

In trying to multi-task between the DRR web site and the "Little Woman" of the house I read the complaint to mean that Dion had altered the fuel. My bad.

Thanks!

Bob

Switched from MTBE to ETBE. If I’m not mistaken prob really close to what Sunoco is doing for oxygenated fuel.

I really wonder what sanctioning bodies caught on and actually had the test performed.Due to complaints. Now when i look at the can of Q16 in the shop. Whats in it?

Switched in 2016. Using ETBE would necessitate a fuel enrichment I believe.

We test every drum and the specifics are there but..

I have a question about race fuels in general that no one has been able to answer. Octane rating is simply the resistance to knock (detonation) and the test is performed on a knock engine.

As far as I know VP fuels does not own a supercharged knock engine which is the only way I know of to actually test these fuels with that high of an octane.

Perhaps they are using some type of gas chromatograph or mass spectrometer or even something with infrared light to measure the octane. The problem being is that gasoline, particularly that which contains lead, is a very complex product.

The standard of the industry (refining) is to actually test the fuel on a knock engine in order to determine it's octane value. A standard knock engine is unable to measure these higher octanes.

So my question has always been, how are you determining the octane value? I would like someone from VP or Sunoco to explain that to me.

So where are all the engine builders and dyno operators complaints about VP fuels not performing up to standards???

Looks like someone wanted to have a new primary supplier and wanted to get out of a competition clause in their distribution agreement.

From the Distributor Agreement

1.2 Competing Products. During the term of this Agreement, Distributor agrees that it will not
actively promote or sell any goods, prodncts or fuels except VP and F&L. Distributor may sell Shell racing
fuel as required under a master agreement with Shell that would cause Distributor substantial loss of business
or profitability if not executed. Distributor agrees not convert any customers to Shell from VP or F&L.
Distributor agrees not to recommend or infer that any of its branded fuels are preferable over VP fuels.
Distributor will not enter into an agreement with any tracks or series naming F&L or Shell as the spec or exclusive fuel unless such opportunity has first been presented as a VP product and VP has specifically refused to participate in such opportunity. If Distributor ceases to sell VP, Distributor will not be allowed to
sell other brands to VP customers for one year.

From the Press Release

M.O. Dion & Sons Inc. and Amber Racing Services will continue to support its race fuel customers with its F&L Race Fuel line of products. F&L Race Fuels are now supplied by a new reputable and well known manufacturer of high quality race fuels. The F&L Race Fuel line will be expanded to a full product line to meet the range of needs of its customers.

From the F&L site

F&L Racing Fuel Expands Product Line
Posted by F&L Racing Fuel on 20th Jun 2019

F&L Racing Fuel has expanded its line of premium Race Fuels to meet the demands of racers and enthusiasts. Building on a strong history of providing high quality products and exceptional service, F&L has the right solution for all racing and recreational applications. Backed by Amber Racing Services F&L is poised to be elevated to a leading position in this specialty fuel niche.

Yes my law degree came out of a box of Cracker Jack

Where does the title come from? "VP Racing Fuels Named in Fraudulent Lawsuit"

Is the lawsuit fraudulent? Or is VP being accused of fraud? The title reads as if whoever wrote the title is defending VP.

Very confusing. And I did not get my law degree from a Cracker Jack box.

quote:

Originally posted by Edd Harney:
Where does the title come from? "VP Racing Fuels Named in Fraudulent Lawsuit"

Is the lawsuit fraudulent? Or is VP being accused of fraud? The title reads as if whoever wrote the title is defending VP.

Very confusing. And I did not get my law degree from a Cracker Jack box.

Possibly reading the supplied information would clear things for you......

Larry,

I ran one of those engines for years. To my knowledge they no longer build the supercharged engine. Sid Mallet (rest his soul) used to come and service our engines. Sid was involved with the Ethyl Corporation, remember ethyl gasoline, in coming up with the original octane charts. This was of course during the days of lead to increase octane.

Anyway, I asked Sid one day if he had perhaps serviced one of these at VP. His answer was that he had not worked on one or seen one in years. Hence my question about determining the octane of race gas.

Someday perhaps I’ll get an answer. Ironically I was the only person in our lab who never got to go to the Waukesha school. I asked one time if they were ever going to send me and they just laughed and told me you don’t need to go, you work on hot rods all the time. Looking back I wish they would have sent me, it would have been interesting.