quote:

Originally posted by fivecentcharlie:
Bret Kepner has been preaching instant green for 25 years (or more). IMO, too many people are scared of anything "different", so it's never gotten any serious traction.

That's kinda the reason for the post. Need to discern why the lack of interest given how popular it's becoming and the fact it may be on the horizon for some classes.

quote:

Originally posted by Nim Rod:

quote:

Originally posted by fivecentcharlie:
Bret Kepner has been preaching instant green for 25 years (or more). IMO, too many people are scared of anything "different", so it's never gotten any serious traction.

That's kinda the reason for the post. Need to discern why the lack of interest given how popular it's becoming and the fact it may be on the horizon for some classes.

I'm not interested because I love that there are two distinct measurements that make up the 'package' and the challenge is pushing the envelope at each end of the track without going too far.

The details of how the system is implemented would really matter also. If the tree is staggered, everyone would want a clean tree and would just load up the delay box to be at the slow end of the class, then have the MPH charge at the finish line.

If the tree is not staggered and it's just about running a certain package, that eliminates finish line driving which is the best part to me. I wouldn't want to just go lay down time shots all day.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:
I don’t like that there is no real penalty to being late on the tree. You could still spray your way back to a legitimately perfect run.

So? It's still driver skill.
At least the race doesn't end at the starting line.


But, there is no "late" if you dial for it.

The only red light would be the LBTA possibility.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Cmar:
Goob
Another benefit of that format is every race is decided on the finish line ,, what i mean is there is no red lights ,
You could forget the instant green and just start the clock on the green light , that would make it easier for everyone to understand

Correct, you're strictly racing for a package, a "red light foul" start is just a "breakout foul" run.

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:
So? It's still driver skill.
At least the race doesn't end at the starting line.


But, there is no "late" if you dial for it.

The only red light would be the LBTA possibility.

So...that's what I don't like about it. Which is exactly what I said. I don't like the ability to make up for an eff-up on the starting line. Current method, you can make it 'look' different but you need to stick to your ET. Can't just compensate and erase the mistake.

It's a different skill, and that's fine. Just stating my opinion of why I wouldn't go for it.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by B KING:

quote:

In Ohio, we have a monthly event called Cincy Street Nights. A few index classes on a marginal surface as well as some small tire classes with fairly loose rules. All of it starts on instant green with AutoStart (little randomization).

At the Cincy Street Nights, the Street Racing Channel boys figured out how to exploit the instant green with AutoStart. They used the Mississippi delay box. Both boys used the technique to go to the finals in different classes, heads-up & index; one of them won & the other took 2nd. The track fixed the issue by turning off AutoStart & manually using the starter for a larger window of randomization.

I'm glad the track fixed that so people wouldn't/couldn't guess it. That was complete horse **** and unsportsmanlike. Legal, within the rules, but dishonorable.

I somewhat agree with your 1st sentence. They weren't guessing, they were using a Mississippi count after both cars were staged. I'm sure they were not perfect, but it provided a reaction time advantage over their opponents.

As for the rest, I disagree!

The SRC boys are savvy racers & adapted to the racing situation within the rules given or not given. The other racers at Cincy Street Nights had the same opportunity to do the same thing.

I doubt that you were even there, but you talk as if you were.

2BKING

quote:

Originally posted by Nim Rod:

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:
Instant Green, with clock start on Green , could easily be used to bracket race, putting the absolute premium on consistency of both car and driver, while removing any fast car / slow car advantages or disparities. No need for delays or crossovers.

See Green, launch, trip finish line. The ET is your combined driver reaction time, vehicle reaction time, and the actual vehicle performance. Totally blinded tree.
You want to see the Green and let go on a delay? Go ahead, just add the numbers to your dial.

Let's say your time slip comes up 7.02 in
your car that normally runs 6.50.
You have .2xx for driver reaction, .3xx for vehicle reaction, plus the actual trip.

Can you really repeat? Dial it 7.02 if you feel lucky, me, I'd dial it 7.00 and go at it.

It's package racing in a different way, more like the good old days when all you got was a paper ticket with a W or L on it, with an ET and MPH

I'd think it would be a fun wrinkle.

This is incredibly insightful and way outside the box. It's brilliant

Thanks, I've pondered this for a while and can't find the downside to it, other than for the people who find the math too difficult.

It could even be done with no display of dial-ins for those that think there would be an advantage gained from that knowledge.

Text your dial in to the tower, verify it on the time slip.?

No software tricks on the tree, no LED compensation lamps, no crosstalk, virtually no red light starts, no bump ups or downs, no actual need for any delay boxes or fancy switches.
You can eliminate $600 worth of lamps on the tree too.
You could use a delay if you want, but why?

Want to hold some numbers?
Go ahead, if ya feel lucky, or you have superior finish line skills.

Same as now, obviously, a "tree reader" device, and "riding the dots" would be the only ways to actually cheat.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Goob,

I think every track should have heads up index racing. And I think alot of bracket racers would join in and have an advantage. It would help put more fans in the stands if marketed right.

I guess I don't understand why some even here would want to remove the starting line from part of the equation for success in bracket racing. I have always said that is one of the two places the driver can influence a race. Take that away? I'm not for that.
Consider the unintended consequence. Yes you take aways delay boxes etc. And I know that brings heartburn to some. Now we can combine all classes into one. Fine. But all that money you spent getting technology out of the starting line, will now be spent getting every last ounce of consistency out of the cars. And if you think that will make folks less inclined to cheat, you are 180 degrees off on that. Now it will be imparitive that every car is inspected and even that won't catch everyone. Frankly that would be the beginning of a quick end to bracket racing.

Index races around here are popular with bracket racers. Frankly it's like multiple super comp clubs all with different indexs. Some don't alow throttle stops which works out for some people. Nobody comes to watch it any more than any other form of bracket racing though.
Every marketing dollar you spend on getting one more butt in the stands to watch a bracket race is simply a wasted dollar. Folks wonder why tracks don't try to promote bracket racing of any sort to spectators....it's because over years of running tracks, they found that to be a wasted effort. The ONLY bracket racing that I have seen fans get excited about watching is q8 style racing. At least they get to see high effort cars going fast and making a bunch of noise.

i think there is 2 different formats being discussed here

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Cmar:
i think there is 2 different formats being discussed here

True. And one makes very little sense to me. The other.....well I just don't see the upside to it. Not trying to be negative. But making bracket racing less like bracket racing isn't going to make bracket racing more popular IMO.

Flat out do not like instant green. It’s what NPK uses and in a heads up format, the winner is often the one that guesses the best. If you wait for green, you’re late.

I don’t see what the attraction would be for sportsman racing.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Cmar:
i think there is 2 different formats being discussed here

I'm at a loss.

Todd, the format I proposed has no advantage to quicker or slower, you set your own .000 reaction time, and dead zero ET, in your dial in.

The clock starts on the Green light, whether you move or not.
You want to sit on the line for 5 seconds after the light comes on, just add 5 seconds to your dial in.

I think it's a fear of putting a 7.xx second dial in on a 6.xx second car.

Off the trailer, right now, I'd be dialing my car 7.07 based off of a 6.60 run last night.

quote:

Originally posted by 1leg:
I think every track should have heads up index racing. And I think alot of bracket racers would join in and have an advantage. It would help put more fans in the stands if marketed right.

Agreed!

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Cmar:
i think there is 2 different formats being discussed here

True. And one makes very little sense to me. The other.....well I just don't see the upside to it. Not trying to be negative. But making bracket racing less like bracket racing isn't going to make bracket racing more popular IMO.

That last bit isn't true. You think leaving bracket/index racing the exact same will make it more popular? Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's going to have to change in some form or fashion if it's ever going to be watchable again.

quote:

Originally posted by Fabman:
Flat out do not like instant green. It’s what NPK uses and in a heads up format, the winner is often the one that guesses the best. If you wait for green, you’re late.

I don’t see what the attraction would be for sportsman racing.

This is my sentiment.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nim Rod,

quote:

Originally posted by B KING:

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by B KING:

quote:

In Ohio, we have a monthly event called Cincy Street Nights. A few index classes on a marginal surface as well as some small tire classes with fairly loose rules. All of it starts on instant green with AutoStart (little randomization).

At the Cincy Street Nights, the Street Racing Channel boys figured out how to exploit the instant green with AutoStart. They used the Mississippi delay box. Both boys used the technique to go to the finals in different classes, heads-up & index; one of them won & the other took 2nd. The track fixed the issue by turning off AutoStart & manually using the starter for a larger window of randomization.

I'm glad the track fixed that so people wouldn't/couldn't guess it. That was complete horse **** and unsportsmanlike. Legal, within the rules, but dishonorable.

I somewhat agree with your 1st sentence. They weren't guessing, they were using a Mississippi count after both cars were staged. I'm sure they were not perfect, but it provided a reaction time advantage over their opponents.

As for the rest, I disagree!

The SRC boys are savvy racers & adapted to the racing situation within the rules given or not given. The other racers at Cincy Street Nights had the same opportunity to do the same thing.

I doubt that you were even there, but you talk as if you were.

Nut swinging on dudes you've never met while claiming I'm talking about a race I didn't go to. Nice.

I conceded that what they were doing was totally legal and within the rules and that every other racer had the same opportunity, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to reiterate that. Also, if you turn loose on nothing, you guessed. You counted, blind guessed, went on the indication of a laser (as stupidly claimed by some idiot on the starting line) I don't care. It's still a guess. You left on no indication, perhaps it was an educated guess, but still a guess. I don't understand how you can say it isn't. And it is objectively dishonorable and almost instantly guarantees a win in an index class. For a while in NPK they had a rule in place forbidding the guess of the light. I suppose that's gone away now but there was a time that even those window-lickers agreed with me.

Anyway, at least it sounds like we agree that it needed to be changed from AutoStart to manual activation to prevent this exact argument, and I appreciate that.

quote:

Originally posted by 1leg:
I think every track should have heads up index racing. And I think alot of bracket racers would join in and have an advantage. It would help put more fans in the stands if marketed right.

I agree with you there and it is a lot of fun. Becoming popular around here. In many index classes here you can not use a throttle stop, only restrictor plate or something to limit throttle but no timed throttle stops. That makes it appear more like a heads up race quickest reaction time first to finish with out breaking out wins. That is more spectator friendly IMHO.

This will not be a popular statement but I have always felt that timed throttle stops are one of best ways to run off spectators. Then complain about not paying much to win. Well if you want a good payout you have to put spectators in the seats. We as racers may need to make some concessions if you want more spectators in the seats and higher payouts. Next thing those racers will say is we are not racing for spectators, it is for us. Then wonder why nobody is watching and sport dying....... If you eliminated the timed throttle stops in Super Classes you would still be running an index and good drivers / tuners would still be competitive but whole thing would be more spectator friendly. I could be wrong but I think if you eliminated timed throttle stops very quickly you would get a lot more racers in those classes which would also help pay out. Another Win, Win. Even if we have a good car count in the Super classes now you never see spectators or kids say they would like to run those classes some day. Make it more spectator friendly and everyone wins.

Also I do not see why they do not have a 7.90 and a 6.90 class? At this point there may be enough cars to run a 5.90 class? As long as there is no timed throttle stops I think it would be popular.

As for the instant green deal I do not think it is a good idea. Looked at it several different ways and it just does not have any up side I can see.

The No Prep deal has been mentioned several times. Part of the No Prep deal is people like to see driving on the edge and crashes. Some want to see a Demolition derby and if there happens to be a race in then that is good to.
For me the Street racing / No Prep deal has too much Fake Drama starting to look like a scripted reality show.

quote:

Also I do not see why they do not have a 7.90 and a 6.90 class? At this point there may be enough cars to run a 5.90 class? As long as there is no timed throttle stops I think it would be popular.

As for the instant green deal I do not think it is a good idea. Looked at it several different ways and it just does not have any up side I can see.

The No Prep deal has been mentioned several times. Part of the No Prep deal is people like to see driving on the edge and crashes. Some want to see a Demolition derby and if there happens to be a race in then that is good to.
For me the Street racing / No Prep deal has too much Fake Drama starting to look like a scripted reality show.

Are you wanting another 1/4 mile index class on top of the other three? or 2 more? I'd be down for that, speed those suckers up to the point where a stop isn't even useful, show me some legit fast index racing! The Verge series is a great example of that showcasing outlaw 4.50 dragsters and 4.70 doorslammers with tons of support. I agree that NHRA should totally try to welcome those guys in, and without throttle stops like the Verge rules indicate.

And for no preps, the main reason I brought that up in the first place is: that's what's popular right now. Some class/bracket racers may want to jump across and run some of the heads up index stuff on that side of things just for the crowd and good payouts. I've competed in a 7.0 index race on instant green no-prep. It was an absolute joke. Easiest $1000 I ever won. I almost felt bad. Those guys don't know anything about class racing, just how to go moderately fast. plus the crowd was massive. I was fortunate enough to not have the light guessed on me, which could have easily ended my day early, which is why I agree with Bucky that it needs to be kept off of AutoStart.

The level of safety crew and equipment on hand for 200 MPH-ish racing is way beyond the average track's capabilities.
All out fast bracket or index to 1000' maybe, but any mishaps at those speeds never end well.

I've seen the data and footage presentation that GM gathered after the death of Big E, and it's serious.
A 35 MPH collision (stop) generates enough energy to kill a properly restrained driver.