We're all aware of the intrusion of computers, and the people that control them, in our lives. Case in point, my brothers webcam stopped working on his computer, he went in and deleted the latest update Microsoft had installed and all was well. At least for now. Since he can only defer MS updates for, I think he said 35 days, it will be back but hopefully the bug will be fixed. So, effectively MS controls his property he has bought and paid for. Along this line of thinking I will attach a video of the dilemma farmers are now facing. We are all aware of the complexity of today's cars as we help each other out on this board, but this is one avenue I was not aware of and it really hit home regarding the incursion of control by corporations and of course the ever present government.
Illegitimi non carborundum
If you are referring to the Win 10 updates which most people don’t think can be turned off, it can be done. First off go thru all the standard settings, which won’t do it, then the clincher is to set the internet access to “A metered connection”. Done.
We talked about this over a year ago, I’ll find the post but not important.. yes they are trying to force you to come to them. And very expensive ! It’s BS! I do not blame the guys for hacking at all go for it!
Raceless in California!
It is nothing but a monies game. Called "GTM"
Just like when i have to renew my truck software
for diagnostics every year. Very costly Cat/Cummins/Detroit. You pay out the ***. That video is an exact example that goes down here in the farming community. They have you by the Gonads.
I couldn't tell the cases i have had in all the years of the truck repair business where as components are disabled and or removed. Very common. Case in point. When the Def/Regen systems came to market, *** was dropping like flys. Brand new tractors $$$ having to towed in for derates. Trucks sitting at the dealers for weeks. O/O loosing their ***. Billions of dollars. One case, Brand new Pete, 550 miles
having to be towed back in. He was furious.
CAT is kinda famous for being super proprietary about their software
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
You should see what Paccar software cost on the
initial purchase $3000.00. Then you have your
annual renewals. I refuse to buy it. The renewals will put you in the poor house. There is not one shop here, there are several,that will purchase it. Tow it to the dealer. More and more companies are having the idle timer set to shut the engine off after 15 minutes. All depends on the desired perimeter setting
I get request all the time. Turn this *** off
I don't. Oh the great log files.This message has been edited. Last edited by: TD3550,
Isn't that a bit of a hollow victory? Eventually things will stop working so you have to open the flood gates and you're back to where you were?
Illegitimi non carborundum
I work for a medical device company and most of our repair parts sales and software is very restricted because of patient safety. Basically if we sold you a part for one of our spine surgical tables and you installed it incorrectly and a patient was injured we would be responsible because we sold a part that you were not factory trained to install and certify by law. This really pisses off some customers because they have to pay $300 an hour for my labor and travel to repair their equipment.
The out is the hospital can send their biomed techs to our factory to be trained and certified on our equipment for about $10K if they want to.
Why couldn't John Deere, Cat, Paccar have a factory school the end user could go to and receive the proper training?, part of that training is they receive the software and cables needed to diagnose there tractors
We have software that runs valves etc for our process at work. Not an enormous plant by any means. Software updates every couple years to the tune of 100k. You don't have to get them. But if anything goes wrong, they don't support the old software anymore. So you are on your own. Now we are understanding that their proprietary hardware is also becoming obsolete.
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
Ah, planned obsolescence. Remember the good old days of The Nikon camera and the small block Chevy. I suppose "give the customer what they want" still applies, but then pull the rug out from under them. Gotcha!
Illegitimi non carborundum
Most of the software has a timer (12 months)
Then it becomes dead. You want to play, you will pay. On average past expiration, they give you about a couple of days. then your SOL if you don't renew. You will pay full price now instead of the renewal price. Technology today with these trucks,the oem's remotely log into the trucks via satellite to run diagnostics when the truck breaks down. Examine all data streams/codes. This is called care,custody,control. They want it ALL. Sad state of affairs. In the next life, it won't be this job... lol
Back to tractors, since that's what I do for a living (kubota--although they really aren't in the ag tractor game-yet).
2014. That's when the first DPF tractors came out. Initially they were problematic. Most of the initial issues are resolved; and they were mostly manufacturing errors, debris on the crank sensor, toner ring machining, etc. Nothing really "big" as far as problems, but many that were quite annoying particularly for consumers. Most of those tractors were sub 50hp, no def. And that is where some of many issues reside. Take into consideration that when a quarter million dollar ag tractor breaks down, the farmer is annoyed but understands that stuff isn't perfect. But when a 20,000 hobby farmer's tractor is broken? You'd think the world was going to end based on the attitude.
So fast forward, 7 years of DPF, about 5 years of DEF (75hp+), and all of them common rail injected vs old mechanical injection. They're all basically the same up to DEF horsepower (approx 75hp) in their design, minor differences. Where I see 99% of the problem is with the fuel. Smaller tractors don't get used all that often in comparison, thus the fuel sits in the tank. Then the fuel they're getting is usually off-road fuel which sits in the storage container at the station forever and a day, then it gets pumped to a consumer's storage container, some of it goes into the tractor where it sits, the rest just sits in the containers. Up to 2 years on average is what I'm understanding. Water condenses. Water in a common rail engine is death to supply pumps and injectors. Most of it is caught by the water separator but most hobbyists think that the separator is nothing more than a filter with a funny looking ring in it (that floats on top of the water so that it's visible). Some of the water is suspended in the fuel and there's nothing that we can do about that. That water will destroy injectors and supply pumps. So then I get Mr. Customer's 35hp tractor into the shop that won't start, or requires ether to start. Of course people are still a little bit old school and they'll still spray a shot of ether to them to get 'em started. Diagnosis, 3 or 4 bad injectors, failed supply pump, broken pistons and bent rods. Sometimes the head is lifted from the block (ether will do that) so head bolts, gaskets, seals, resurfacing, etc. If I have to replace an engine, $18,000 or more including labor, tax, dpf. Rebuild is a little cheaper but we then have to worry about the government breathing down our back in that they're questioning what was done during the rebuild. The software to work on them is proprietary as is Deere's and several other manufacturers (cat comes to mind). So dealer has to buy the software and hardware and then the annual license. Updates all the time, someone has to be on top of it because if the software is out of date it just won't work, and then the tech is scratching his head trying to figure out why (time lost). Also the software is now set up to leave a footprint whenever certain functions are done within the ecu. The software automatically and secretively sends information to the manufacturer, who has to document it just in case the EPA wants the documentation (and they do spot checks, is what I'm told).
So costs. Dealer has to have the tools (soft and hardware and license). Manufacturer has to keep record from 2014 until eternity, so they're looking at dedicated servers to hold the information. Parts replacement costs are out of this world. 3 injectors? Figure $3000 by time it's all said & done. Supply pump? $3500. DEF header assembly? $2600. It gets real interesting if a customer gets a few drops of diesel into the def tank. Replace the header, hoses, pump, heater, injector, maybe the DPF (it will burn the substrate up), etc etc. On the only one I looked into, $15,200 and change.
Who pays for it? The consumer. Farmer has to budget for those costs, and he does it by increasing the cost of what he sells, which you and I pay for. Trucking industry is the same way which is one reason you're starting to see a lot of the UPS local delivery vehicles go back to gas engines (at least all of our local ones are). This stuff is a huge cost increase to Americans. I don't like it. People sometimes say that I "should" like it because I repair them, but I don't. They're much harder to deal with, have to jump through government hoops to replace injectors, dpf, def headers, def injectors, supply pumps, and a bunch of other stuff. If it's not done, we are in violation of federal emissions regulation and then have to deal with the feds. Another cost increase. The whole ordeal is a major pain in the neck for everyone. I am not happy about it all and quite frankly am re-thinking my career choice because of it.
You wanna hear something that really chaps people's hide? Let's say I have a 1990's tractor and the engine is trashed, run out of oil, whatever. It's cheaper to replace it, so I run to the dealer with credit card in hand, ask them to order an engine. NOPE! I have to go home, drill a 1/2" hole through the side of the block and into a cylinder, take a picture of the bit run through the engine block next to the engine's serial number, send it to dealer who sends it to kubota (or deere or whoever). An engine will not be shipped until the old engine's destruction is documented, and they (manufacturer) has to also keep it on record for eternity. Sometimes the picture isn't clear enough for someone on the other end to clearly read the serial number, sometimes they don't like the hole placement, sometimes the serial number is gone (rod through the block). They won't send you an engine until all that stuff is done and taken care of. Another pain in the neck. I'm hearing that they've relaxed some of the regs on that, but as of yesterday, we're still having to do it will continue to until told otherwise. So basically, the used engine market will dry up at some point and good used engines will be extinct and if for some weird reason you can find one, it better be under the radar and you can guarantee it will be more expensive than it should.
Mav, you mentioned a couple of drops of fuel in the Def tank. I have to laugh. You won't believe how many calls i get a year on units, especially rentals and some o/o's. they manage to "FILL" the def tank with #2. I don't know how in the hell they get that nozzle in the tank but they do. They will then drive it till it shuts off in traffic.
SOS, I swear i didn't grab the wrong handle. Same issue with filling the fuel tank with gasoline on a diesel. I stopped doing the mobile flush outs.
I can't get rid of the contaminated fuel without a major pickup cost. I just don't do it anymore.
Tow it in. Some of the ones with the Davco units all i have to do is look at the plastic bowl. Yep it's gasoline. No smell test needed lol.
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