Indy was very clear, stage beams weren’t aligned properly

Mr. Turk, just the guy I was looking for. Can you provide for us the specifications on the pre stage beam please. I asked in a previous thread but got no reply. Better yet explain this happening for us. This occured less than 1 week before JD questioned his times at the very same track.
Fri morning during tt a racer in a dragster was having difficulty staging well actually pretstaging to be exact. He would roll into the prestage beam and it would light, as he rolled forward the prestage would go out then as he rolled more forward both the prestage and stage would light at the same time. When this happened the starting line crew shut the car down and proceeded to roll this car thru the beams by hand multiple times. Each time the same thing happened. They threw their hands up and said well, you know what's happening so deal with it. The racer went ahead and made a run and his reaction and et seemed to be ok. While back in the pits the racer checked his front tire psi and it was at 31 when he usually runs 35. 4 psi isn't enough to even be able to tell a difference in height ,
While checking the tire psi, another racer approached us and said his car started doing the same thing the week before and only in the right lane. They both agreed just run the left lane and it will not be an issue. They ran the left with no issues the rest of the weekend. Now, let's get to Saturday. One of your Keystone racers was staging in the left lane when he noticed the right lane prestage come on then go off and then both prestage and stage light up. The racer in the left not knowing what was going on, squeezed the button a little harder and was tardy and lost the race. When he approached the starting line after the race he was told yes, that dragster has been doing that every round. So now we have 3 different dragsters doing this only in the right lane but there isn't any issues with the timing system. Can you tell us what is happening ? After this, I used a height guage to check my rim to the ground distance from 20 psi up to 40 psi and also the height needed to get thru the rim webbing which was over 3 inches. So what exactly is going on ? Sorry this got way too long !

Keith, i would rather not air a racetrack's dirty laundry on an open forum. Needless to say the quick overview was the promoters for the ACE events got Rusty to fly in and resolve the issue. Yes there was a problem, no it was not per say the timing system. Some people tend to take any issue and blame the timing system. The terminology garbage information in and you get garbage out is what was happening. The timing system was doing exactly what it was told from the sensors. In the simplest of terms and not throwing anyone under the bus it was mis alignments and sensitivity adjustments. The issue was resolved and the ACE event went off with no problems and the track is perfect now.

And to be honest this type of thing happens at alot of tracks. You have so called experts that in reality don't have a clue or know just enough to be dangerous and can induce more issues trying to fix things. Plus not looking back and understanding the actual issue. The matrix movie had the best line causality, cause and effect.

So more than likely your car, Jr is just fine now. If it works at other track it should work anywhere. this goes back to what someone previously mentioned that is track maintenance. Thing like sensors and foam block reflectors can move round over time and need adjusted. Alot of tracks dont know how or care to check unless there is an issue. Hence the MPH issue the in the opening posting on this thread.

As for your sensor question, every tracks starting line is different ( slope, crown dips ect) and there is no industry spec but the low and upper end height ranges are 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Its all where they can get the roll out set to stage on to stage off at 11 1/2 inches. So if you have a track on this high side and your JR has the open rims and you don't have the beam shields attached you will have staging issues.

quote:

Originally posted by TORQIN:
Been to tracks where the entire facility is ran off of one BIG diesel generator...

I knew of 2. Both are closed now. One closed last week but I suspect when renovations were done a few years ago the power was updated.

quote:

Originally posted by Eman:
Superior equipment? How about zero maintenance?

Seeing the wiring ect for the timing equipment at most tracks is as scary as seeing inside the kitchen at most restaurants.

quote:

Originally posted by 27Keith:
Mr. Turk, just the guy I was looking for. Can you provide for us the specifications on the pre stage beam please. I asked in a previous thread but got no reply. Better yet explain this happening for us. This occured less than 1 week before JD questioned his times at the very same track.
Fri morning during tt a racer in a dragster was having difficulty staging well actually pretstaging to be exact. He would roll into the prestage beam and it would light, as he rolled forward the prestage would go out then as he rolled more forward both the prestage and stage would light at the same time. When this happened the starting line crew shut the car down and proceeded to roll this car thru the beams by hand multiple times. Each time the same thing happened. They threw their hands up and said well, you know what's happening so deal with it. The racer went ahead and made a run and his reaction and et seemed to be ok. While back in the pits the racer checked his front tire psi and it was at 31 when he usually runs 35. 4 psi isn't enough to even be able to tell a difference in height ,
While checking the tire psi, another racer approached us and said his car started doing the same thing the week before and only in the right lane. They both agreed just run the left lane and it will not be an issue. They ran the left with no issues the rest of the weekend. Now, let's get to Saturday. One of your Keystone racers was staging in the left lane when he noticed the right lane prestage come on then go off and then both prestage and stage light up. The racer in the left not knowing what was going on, squeezed the button a little harder and was tardy and lost the race. When he approached the starting line after the race he was told yes, that dragster has been doing that every round. So now we have 3 different dragsters doing this only in the right lane but there isn't any issues with the timing system. Can you tell us what is happening ? After this, I used a height guage to check my rim to the ground distance from 20 psi up to 40 psi and also the height needed to get thru the rim webbing which was over 3 inches. So what exactly is going on ? Sorry this got way too long !

This sounds like the nose of the dragster was hanging a little low and blocking the pre stage beam. He rolled forward, nose caught the beam and lit the pre stage. Then when he continued to roll forward the nose blocked the stage beam and the wheel blocked the pre stage beam making them appear to light up at the same time.

Happened to me.

You would be surprised at what a transformer is running if you really look close. I know of 2 tracks the timing system, tower, consesion stand,and even some lights are all run off 1 transformer. Are there voltage drops ? You bet there is. Turn your electric fan on then your on board compressor and what happens. Same thing with a 37.5, 50,100 Kia transformers. They can be overloaded

I will say this after learning a bit about timing systems. Contrary to popular belief infra red emitters are not laser beams. They have a range of adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by Turk:
Keith, i would rather not air a racetrack's dirty laundry on an open forum. Needless to say the quick overview was the promoters for the ACE events got Rusty to fly in and resolve the issue. Yes there was a problem, no it was not per say the timing system. Some people tend to take any issue and blame the timing system. The terminology garbage information in and you get garbage out is what was happening. The timing system was doing exactly what it was told from the sensors. In the simplest of terms and not throwing anyone under the bus it was mis alignments and sensitivity adjustments. The issue was resolved and the ACE event went off with no problems and the track is perfect now.

And to be honest this type of thing happens at alot of tracks. You have so called experts that in reality don't have a clue or know just enough to be dangerous and can induce more issues trying to fix things. Plus not looking back and understanding the actual issue. The matrix movie had the best line causality, cause and effect.

So more than likely your car, Jr is just fine now. If it works at other track it should work anywhere. this goes back to what someone previously mentioned that is track maintenance. Thing like sensors and foam block reflectors can move round over time and need adjusted. Alot of tracks dont know how or care to check unless there is an issue. Hence the MPH issue the in the opening posting on this thread.

As for your sensor question, every tracks starting line is different ( slope, crown dips ect) and there is no industry spec but the low and upper end height ranges are 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Its all where they can get the roll out set to stage on to stage off at 11 1/2 inches. So if you have a track on this high side and your JR has the open rims and you don't have the beam shields attached you will have staging issues.

Turk are you in the timing equipment industry?

Of course transformers can be overload if they are too small. This is where understanding of timing systems come in as the 2 main ones have different way of powering things up. But neither one sends power from the computer to any device. They both use separate regulated power supplies and for that fact so does the PCs. so you can have a voltage drop and the power supplies will maintain the 5, 12, 15 volts to a point then it shuts off and they have built in protection. In the tower a track is crazy not to have the Pc's and power supplies plugged into a battery backup unit. $99 unit at best buy. That throws the voltage drop out the window as it won't drop. For example the power for the starting sensors comes from power supply in the tower but the tree gets its 120 v from usually a different outlet that was ran to the tree. So the tree can dim down but the sensors stay rock solid. Again depends on the track and if they have battery backups as they also regulate the 120v..
This can go down a long never ending rabbit hole on how tracks have things plugged in and best practices. Some track don't care and some go way above to make it clean.

Turk, I was not referring to the ACE race or that particular track. It was not the front of any of the vehicles hanging low. All 3 dragsters involved run multiple tracks during the season with no issues. Workers were on their hands and knees and others standing along the wall at the "beams" to see what was going on.

So we have low voltage sensors mounted in a box that was wired and built about the time man landed on the moon. Low voltage would be even more effected by corrosion causing resistance in the circuit. Command central (the tower) at many tracks is a marginally built structure with poor climate control and plenty of dust and dirt available.

This has been going on for years .

The one improvement needed is a DC powered tree.
EVERYTHING else in the system is DC powered, except the lamps on the tree. To make it more stupid, a LED lamp converts AC into DC to light the elements.
Now think about 60hz AC current, and look at video of LED lamps at 70fps or quicker.

Never seen a processor that wasn't running off UPS power, flushing the toilet ain't gonna effect the system.

"Glitches", a LOT of times happen when a back terminal operator is inputting data at the wrong time.

Starting line sensors are coded by specific frequency, and it's not always solid. Sometimes they get mixed on the starting line, or they use ALL the same coded equipment, that's a problem.
Beam alignment is critical.

Yes, the processor clocks are running Mhz speed, but the track sensors are only reliable to within .001, if ya bought the "certified" units.

Track sensor voltage isn't really that critical as long as the connections are solid, the processor only sees a voltage switch for an event signal, it doesn't matter if it's only getting 3v, or 4.2v, instead of the full 5v.

I didn't read the article, but read some of the comments....

Maybe some day there will be a system that isn't running in DOS 6.2 ...although for it's job, (to time and score a drag race), it's VERY good at that, but VERY task specific, add ons to the systems like Crosstalk and Pink light, and LED lamp compensations are VERY concerning, in MY opinion....worth what ya paid for it.

Goob,

While some of your comments are correct some are inaccurate. The reason being is that you are basing your information about "ONE" specific timing system by your comments. Also Certified sensors don't exist that's a made up term one system uses to make it sound special and charge extra $$. If John DiBartolomeo really wants to talk about all these "issues" this needs to be broken down into specific timing systems. John should reach out and do a total break down of how each systems work. The end results of the data on the time slip looks the same between the systems and to the racer but i can assure you the 2 major systems on the market could not be more different in how they acquire and process the data. Also Goob, yes there are several systems on the market that do not run DOS 6.2 and if you ask the system the starts with Comp they will insist it does not run dos.

This is my big issue with John writing an article like this, what was his data based on, real facts or all his wild theories. Track A runs a compulink, Track B runs Accutime and track C could be a TSI or PortAtree its like comparing apples to oranges to pears with timing systems designs and implementation at a track. Along with each track being different in power and wiring. Each one is unique in its own way.

I do agree with John in that if a track has bad power or wiring issues it does not matter what timing system they have, its going to have problems or "glitches". Seen it many times where system was perfect when installed and 3yrs later there are more splices then you could imagine and the expert helper used twist on lugs to splice wires. Hence why sensors have erroneous readings or don't work correctly. All the racer will do is blame the timing system when it was the subpar repair. Same with sensor alignments, this is probably THE most over looked maintenance items on a racetrack and causes the most prevalent issues racers see. Incorrect roll out settings and beam height which includes down track sensors too. Way back in John's article he talks about a MPH being different in lanes, 90% bet it was an incorrect sensor height setting.

John, reach out to the timing systems companies i listed as the major 2 and do a questions and answers article. That would be interesting reading for everyone coming from the actual designers and the visions they had when building it. Plus it would be interesting to read Rusty and Bob's replies when you ask them about the popcorn machine and toilet being flushed theories.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Turk,

This a good post & a good read & I believe that we did land on the moon lol
Back to the race track issues I believe that some of the possible issues you mentioned could be caused by gremlins like you mentioned
Like you I also had my lights at home getting dimmer & brighter & it turned out to be a bad transformer a few doors down