quote:

Originally posted by wideopen231:
Is Santos going to build a SBC for a FED for you. If so it would be bad SOB. Heck lite wieght FED with Santos power should be easy ticket to fast TD. Now get a Parks car with his lite weight stuff and he has a ton and that combo would be rocket.

Rick has built light great working TAD and FED chassis.. I’m sure if I said let’s do it, he’d already be on it. Rick just finished his dad George Santos -The Goldfinger Jr Fueler 60’s - 70’s.
All brand new chassis and body. The exact small block right down to the crank was in the original! I watched Stickman ( Eric Reyes ) do the lettering. What a blast! Crazy Cool

quote:

Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
what you are looking for is the "moment" that the weight causes at the centerline of the rear axle.

The Moment of a force is a measure of its tendency to cause a body to rotate about a specific point or axis. Moment = Force x Distance or M = (F)(d)

If you want to compare movement of some things that are different distances from your pivot point (rear axle) multiply the weight of said object vs. the distance from the pivot point. Whichever is the bigger number will result in more downward force or resistance to lifting the front end.

Now if you want to verify all of that go get 4 scales, move your fuel tank and battery then compare.

L I K E !

quote:

Originally posted by BP758:

quote:

Originally posted by wideopen231:
Is Santos going to build a SBC for a FED for you. If so it would be bad SOB. Heck lite wieght FED with Santos power should be easy ticket to fast TD. Now get a Parks car with his lite weight stuff and he has a ton and that combo would be rocket.

Rick has built light great working TAD and FED chassis.. I’m sure if I said let’s do it, he’d already be on it. Rick just finished his dad George Santos -The Goldfinger Jr Fueler 60’s - 70’s.
All brand new chassis and body. The exact small block right down to the crank was in the original! I watched Stickman ( Eric Reyes ) do the lettering. What a blast! Crazy Cool

There is nothing quite like driving a FED but they can be difficult to get dialed in. What works on a RED will not work on FED and tire combinations, weight and weight location are critical. Chassis flex is an issue. But for fun to drive FED all the way. Tell Rick I said Hi.

One of main reason I choose to build fed more work required to tune it out. While FED and RED react differently to most things chassis wise,I feel knowing what one does and how other does will tell you difference and maybe give idea of waht should happen with anoither change. Yes more runs would be better but so would bigger bank account and younger family members in better health. Lack of runs is why have not tried something I have in mind. Since noway to know if improve or not. This deal is just easiy to do now with other changes being made

In case nobody can tell I love the figuring out what and why it worked or did not work. Not trying to reinvent the wheel.Just maybe get more out of it for less.

Going to borrow A set of scales in week or so and answer few questions. That way can weigh all four corners with some accuracy and see what moving weight does. By the way list of question has only grown since looking into this. I will either learn something new or learn I tend to overthink something that I should just try then aske why. Thats not new idea.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wideopen231,

As for one change. Steering arm length. Was told may need 6" instead of 5". Man what a difference. Steering rotation of about 22* to achieve same wheel movement at front of wheel. Plus really decreases how sharp car will turn. Thinking 5-1/4 or maybe 5-1/2 and yes 1/4 still good difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:

quote:

Originally posted by BP758:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wideopen231:
Is Santos going to build a SBC for a FED for you. If so it would be bad SOB. Heck lite wieght FED with Santos power should be easy ticket to fast TD. Now get a Parks car with his lite weight stuff and he has a ton and that combo would be rocket.[/QUOTE





Rick has built light great working TAD and FED chassis.. I’m sure if I said let’s do it, he’d already be on it. Rick just finished his dad George Santos -The Goldfinger Jr Fueler 60’s - 70’s.
All brand new chassis and body. The exact small block right down to the crank was in the original! I watched Stickman ( Eric Reyes ) do the lettering. What a blast! Crazy Cool

There is nothing quite like driving a FED but they can be difficult to get dialed in. What works on a RED will not work on FED and tire combinations, weight and weight location are critical. Chassis flex is an issue. But for fun to drive FED all the way. Tell Rick I said Hi.

I did last time we spoke.

Wideopen, your dumb bell example is not applicable to this conversation. Not due to the lever arm length but due to the muscles that are available for use and their preferred direction of action. Twist your wrist 90 or 180 degrees and try to do the same curl with the same dumbell, it will be different because you are taking different muscles out of service and putting others into service. Your example has to do with the human body and muscle function/design more than it does physics.

In your case, the front axle and the relative position of the weight to the front axle is not considered in this discussion because that has no impact on traction at the back tire (other than the total weight on the front of the car and distance from rear end). Your question centered around moving weight vs adding weight. For sure if you move weight from one location to another in a car it will change the corner weights and weight bias front to rear (another topic). If you want to know what's better move a 45 lb battery 3" forward or move a 25 lb fuel tank 6" forward the moment equation in reference to the rear end C/L is the way to do that. Assuming you want to move weight to the front of the car, just work both equations and see which is the larger of the two and that will be the answer to your question.

Now if you want to isolate the front end and compare the differences in moving weight in reference to the front axle you can use the same equation and your length becomes its distance away from the centerline of the front axle. Not sure why you'd want to do that, but it will still work.

Its a very simple formula: WEIGHT X DISTANCE = MOMENT

For the record I'm not a physics major but Mechanical Engineers take lots of physics courses.....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Triple Nickel,

Yes I am only concerned with effect oin fron axle. Fed is lot more sensitive to weight on front and if can apply some force aginst it with less weight then Hell yea sign me up. The removal of other weight like lighter wheel while still making front harder to lift oh well I will suffer threw.LOL It is just bonus side effect. Weight has almost zero effect on rear when tire is on ground it is leveraging off front axle.Like weight in trunk of car does more for weigtht transfer than weight over axle.

I know formula and while not engimanure( worked with them lot i air balance so a joke) I do mind set and done lots of physics calcualtions and study. If going by the fact center of mass was at 6 or 7 infront of axle and I am moving same. I am dbling distance so 270 to 540. If so that would mean weight is acting like dbl and find hard to believe that. Sounds too good

Guess tripple nickel and I are looking at same gthing from different angles. Probably a agree to disagree end result or both right but on different points.

Can't believe all formula's. Like pie r squared.Pies r round and cobblers r square. As I told few math teachers. yea old but still true.

When the front wheels are off the ground, there effectively is no front axle so nothing matters relative to that axle. There are a bunch of heavy things that the rear axle rotation is lifting, that are all various distances from the rear axle. The front axle and wheels are just more weight being lifted. Changing the weight of any item, or changing the distance from the rear axle will change the force needed to lift them and keep them in the air.

Lenny....exactly!

If you need proof, try this test: put a 5 lb ankle weight on the end of a 5 foot long stick. Now try and rotate that stick off the ground by twisting the end without the ankle weight. Try the same test with a 10 foot long stick with the same 5 lb weight, it will be 2X as hard to rotate.

5lbs x 5ft = 25ft-lbs
5lbs x 10ft = 50ft-lbs

quote:

Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
Lenny....exactly!

If you need proof, try this test: put a 5 lb ankle weight on the end of a 5 foot long stick. Now try and rotate that stick off the ground by twisting the end without the ankle weight. Try the same test with a 10 foot long stick with the same 5 lb weight, it will be 2X as hard to rotate.

5lbs x 5ft = 25ft-lbs
5lbs x 10ft = 50ft-lbs

I absolutely agree with that but do not know the math for moving how ever much the fuel tank weighs 6 inches forward and battery 7 inches forward would come out to. Probably not a whole lot but it helps.

Like said few back. Will put on four scale system and can see changes fron or rear. IMO only true wauyto know is seeing it happen with measurments and move weight and redo then compare. Hell may be no effect on lift at hit nut has to put more force on front axle at half track and if ask anyone who has ever messed with a FED and one or two have stated being able to drive it can shave et even when adding weight. By the way that last statement goes agains my religion of any weight is too much.LOl

Now if want it to get interesting I can loosen chassis slip at front and see waht it does. I know with 6 turns out I can lift center 6" at engine bay before wheels budge. Normally get around]2 to 2.5" before lifting wheels.


+

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wideopen231,

Ok Jacked car up in middle 4" lifted nose 3", Moved battery fowars 7" Dropped nose to 2.5.

Jacked car up at front axle 4" nose moved 5" move battery forwars 7" measured almost same 0 to 1/8 less.easuring point 28". Did not fgure left would change. Still figure only way to know how much molre or less is to jack car up with jack on scales of resting block and see if changes.

Ok need for debate over.

Scales show very little difference in fron axle weight,As kind of expected. Math show will have more effect even if small figured off rear axle.Does shoe more if figured off front axle at rest with wheels on ground.

Fuel tank show very littel off rear with wheels up.
So leaving fuel tank where is, reunning rac-n-pinion as it rear of axle. Moving battery out as far as cal after new front with new longer nose piece. WIll leaver space behind axlle,between battery and axle aInd in front of axle if ever need wieght added(doubtful). Less work.less money. Money saved is half costof new ceramic bearings to replace one I had till guy made offer couldn;t refused.

Would like to thnink all for repilies and debate, While may seem like I do not take opinions of others. I do give them thought and some times even find new point that helps make decisons.little like this one.

Thanks guys and lokk foward to more discussions on my wild hair ideas.LOL