Share |
DragRaceResults.Com    Bracket Talk    Bracket Talk Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  Tech Talk - by Abruzzi    Production Parts 454 Bracket/Street Build
Page 1 2 3 4 ... 11
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Production Parts 454 Bracket/Street Build
 Login/Join
 
DRR Trophy
posted
My plan is to build a production parts based 454 over the next few weeks. My build will consist of a .060 2 bolt 454 block, worked over 4.00 GM crank, 3/8 GM rods. Compression will be set at 10.3, heads will be a 781 GM oval port heads, Performer RPM air gap intake, 4150 carb. I will be running a .560 net lift 264 @ .050 on a 108 solid lifter flat tappet. Oil pan will be a modified Moroso 20401. RPM range will be 5500-7000, target HP will be 650 stp on pump gas.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VORTECPRO,
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
Good deal. Have done several like that.
7,000 RPM on a cast crank? I've done that before, too - but I sure hope you plan to use upgraded rod bolts... (And I highly recommend a balance job). Also, the truck rods ("thumbprint" rods) are stronger than the 3/8" car rods. But I still would put some basic ARP bolts in them, cheap insurance.
That cam, heads and intake, (which are well-matched, especially if you go to larger valves), will quickly tell you that you're risking everything by turning 7 grand for no benefit. That combo will be happiest (and perform best) below 64-6500 RPM. May even run quickest with a shift point of 6K.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FootbrakeJim,


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 426 | Location: Dallas, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
I think the power peak will be 6600 RPM. If I was to run this engine in my car I would shift it out of low @ 6400 RPM, second to third @ 6800 and hopefully it would be turning over 7000 + RPM through the lights if it was at all quick. If I can figure out how to put pictures up I will show you how the bottom end was done.
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Pro_ET
posted Hide Post
quote:
target HP will be 650 stp on pump gas


You may end up disappointed! However, I've made over 700 HP (496) but that was way more compression and better parts with quite a bit of head work on Alky.

There are plenty of articles for these builds that date way back. Here's a fairly recent article for you.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles...-big-block-for-4000/
 
Posts: 192 | Location: Div 3 | Registered: December 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
I’m sure more than a few of us have seen your builds, and the impressive power production from “stock” parts, but seems like most engines end up with the street/strip crowd. How reliable is this type of build in a bracket application of 200+ runs a year? Even with the top notch machining and attention to detail, I think most would be concerned about longevity with the short block.
 
Posts: 28 | Location: Vancouver, WA. | Registered: August 17, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
I appreciate your opinions! I've run engines for years like this one with zero problems, but I do run them in a foot brake application which I'am sure helps, and I do run them hard though. The bottom end is pretty light weight which I believe helps. My theory is: when you run a full weight (3720) foot brake Chevelle it must be able to run 7000 + RPM in the lights or your never going to see a 9 sec pass. My customer for this engine will never run it hard enough to truly utilize the power. Reliability has never been a problem on this simple type engine build before. Now that being said Ill probably break the crank on the dyno Confused
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
What's the process for con rod prep?
 
Posts: 640 | Location: Bucks Co Pa | Registered: January 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
I would really be interested in seeing the dyno sheet once you get it done. Not knowing the detailed specs of the cam, my comment on the peak power RPM was based on experience with several similar combos, including a few that were/are used in footbrake cars that see regular bracket duty. All had 049/781 steel heads, with configuration ranging from bone stock, to bigger valves and significant port work done by knowledgeable guys. Compression ratios ran from 8.7:1 up to 13.7:1. Cams varied from mild hydraulic flat-tappet 234/244* .553/.578" (I/E) to Solid F.T., to Solid Rollers up to 272*/.650+". LSA all around 108*, all were installed straight-up, and then tested at +/-2*, +/-4*. All but one ended up using a 4150 on a Performer RPM intake. Only one of them exceeded 650 HP, (as you might guess, it was the highest compression, biggest solid roller cam, and the peak power was after switching to a Victor/1050 Dominator on methanol). Even THAT engine, after multiple tuning sessions and A/B/C/A/D/E/A testing with ignition timing variations from 32* up to 40*, and shift points (3-speed. TH400) tested at increments of 200 RPM, from 5800 to 7000, still ran quickest in a 3630# car with 4.56 gear and ATI converter flashing to 5,000 - with timing locked at 36* and shifting 1-2/2-3 at 6400, hitting the lights at 6800. 6600 RPM was almost identical, slower by .01 ET, same MPH. And the variance was so small with all of the different tests, that it made zero sense to spin the life out of it. The most forgiving "mild-moderate" BBC I ever built, you could miss your launch RPM or shift RPM by 200, and other than the R/T difference, it didn't hurt your run. Most of the milder combinations yielded very similar results, (with regard to consistency across different shift points and timing). This is exactly why bigger-inch engines with flatter torque curves are generally superior to small-block screamers in bracket racing.
The mildest cam, with the mildest (stock/fresh) heads, and lowest compression, ran best when shifted at 5800 RPM.
A 10.25:1 468 with 2.19/1.88 valves, Hyd F/T cam .575" 246* and an 850 double pumper only liked 200 more RPM for best ET, (6K shift point), although a 1 inch open spacer let it breathe an additional 200 RPM before laying over at 6200.
I was always limited by Valve to Piston clearance with the steel heads, never could come close to using anything over .680" lift. I suspect there may be some off-the-shelf pistons out there now that have deeper valve reliefs, (especially on the intake side), always wanted to try more cam to see if the port cross-sectional area was really the limiting factor for RPM... Would love to know Mfr & P/N if anybody is aware of one.


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 426 | Location: Dallas, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR All Star
Picture of 1320racer
posted Hide Post
Jim, as I'm sure you would agree, there's no magic, no special formula to building a 600 -700HP pump gas 468 with a stock block and cast iron oval port heads in the year 2017.

The fact is it has been done for decades by many, ranging from nationally known engine builders, most noteably John Lingenfelter to those working out of their garage like this forums own scdiv1.

I too have had several iterations starting in '86 and ending in 2008, all based on a factory 2 bolt block, factory cast iron oval port head, though my castings were 215, semi closed chamber which I believe produce better power than the more readily available 049 & 781 that most used and off the shelf TRW/Speed Pro pistons that yielded between 10.4 and 10.7:1 compression over these many years, run with GM 3/8" dimple rods as well hydraulic, solid and roller cams, all of which made enough vacuum to operate the power brakes. Most important, All produced north of 600HP except the '86 version and included an Edelbrock Performer or Performer RPM dual plane manifold, 1 3/4" headers and a Moroso 20401 oil pan.

A little triva...that pan did not have the cut corners of the sump until after I bought the original pan and it did not fit which followed with a call to Scott at Moroso and photos of the fix.



The 2006 iteration had Wiesco pistons that yielded 11:1 compression and valve reliefs deep enough to allow a cam with .740 gross lift, Crower rods and crank and in 2007 the Performer RPM Air Gap was swapped out for a Holley Strip Dominator manifold and the 1 3/4: headers were swapped for 2" headers. This engine along with all its predecessors were never dyno but based on track performance, 10.07 @ 131, 1.28 60 foot at 3880lbs. lbs. and running through a full exhaust, produced north of 700HP and some felt as much as 750HP.



That all said, I have no doubt the OP will achieve his target HP as has been done for decades but to what end other than a sales pitch here? Today, you can't give away a 454/468 to a street/strip guy, especially one with cast iron heads, a cast crank and stock rods, no mind sell one to a real bracket racer that races every week from opening day until closing day for the season.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1320racer,


O'IT!

Offering 1st hand experience and advice based on track proven performance, on the web since 1998.

Support our President! Support our Troops! Support our economy! Buy American!!

"if you guys are so broke dyck you can't buy USA made parts you need to stay the fuc at home that's the bottomline" ----Tim McAmis



 
Posts: 9019 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
Ok,may I ask a question . Cost vrs results would a new set of heads be better? The guy that does a lot of my work says a used up set of heads takes a lot of labor and parts , more than just buying new? Thanks for the answer.
 
Posts: 62 | Location: Southwest IOWA | Registered: March 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR All Star
Picture of 1320racer
posted Hide Post
As much as I am a big fan of the factory oval port heads, today with the desired castings scarce your $ would be better spent on a set of Brodix Race Rite, factory replacement heads if building a street/strip 454/468 but as I stated above, who wants this small big block today?


O'IT!

Offering 1st hand experience and advice based on track proven performance, on the web since 1998.

Support our President! Support our Troops! Support our economy! Buy American!!

"if you guys are so broke dyck you can't buy USA made parts you need to stay the fuc at home that's the bottomline" ----Tim McAmis



 
Posts: 9019 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of HS professor
posted Hide Post
Am I the only one who see's 650hp on pump gas with a small flat tappet cam and 781 heads a bit optimistic Eek


I have no doubt 650 is easy with a 454, but unless those heads and cam are something really special, I don't see it. And that .060 over block better be sonic tested. I just went through 4 Blocks and not a single one would be thick enough to make good power at .060 over.

jmo ..............
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Monroe twp nj | Registered: December 05, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR All Star
Picture of 1320racer
posted Hide Post
Bob, you know as well I, that dyno numbers are meaningless and self serving. Any experienced dyno operator can make a 600HP engine show 650. Wink The time slip is all that matters.

That said, I believe nothing as it relates to power and performance that I read on these forums and half of what I see with my own eyes.

So unless I see the run and I see the car on the scales immediately after, its just a claim.


O'IT!

Offering 1st hand experience and advice based on track proven performance, on the web since 1998.

Support our President! Support our Troops! Support our economy! Buy American!!

"if you guys are so broke dyck you can't buy USA made parts you need to stay the fuc at home that's the bottomline" ----Tim McAmis



 
Posts: 9019 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HS professor:
Am I the only one who see's 650hp on pump gas with a small flat tappet cam and 781 heads a bit optimistic Eek


I have no doubt 650 is easy with a 454, but unless those heads and cam are something really special, I don't see it. And that .060 over block better be sonic tested. I just went through 4 Blocks and not a single one would be thick enough to make good power at .060 over.

jmo ..............




No your not the only one who doubts that HP level will reached with that pile of parts.

Is it possible.....sure but not likely.....

In my engine shop days I can recall many engine builds that we dynoed.

Early to mid 1980s

We had a Go-Power static dyno.....Water brake....You preset the load and pulled it.....
No rpm sweep and read the power once the rpm stabilized.
We usually let the rpm ride slightly over where it was going to end up as it would be a bit higher than pulling up from a lower rpm.
The pulling up method is what modern dynos do.....but we liked to see the best numbers possible. It was not a real big difference....
It was a very crude machine compared to today and read torque directly from a giant sized torque meter we aquired.
It took 2 of us to take readings.....One signaled the other when the rpm stabilized and we recorded the TQ.
I input the numbers into a Texas Instruments Scientific Calculator and it spit out HP. A friend and racer set that calculator up and it used magnetic strips for the program. Had to load it every time we turned it on...
I could "fudge" the inputs and the corrected HP number would change.
I did that a few times just to get over a number.....like 500 hp for a small block.....

I can recall one 454 in particular right now...Keep in mind the parts we had to choose from back then was not anything like today....not even close....
Pretty good engine for the era.
GM aluminum heads with 13 to 1 ish compression.
Ported heads, Ported intake, maybe a Dart....1050 carb......Typical roller cam of the era.....Something around .720 lift and 270 something---280 something at .050

Made less than 750....and the car was a S/C Vega that was no flyweight and went 8.90's at low 150's for mph.....Probably 2600lbs + car with driver


A cast crank belongs in a street car......even an Eagle 4340 is a better option
3/8ths bolt rods are a complete waste of time and money....again even Eagle H beams are a better option..
A low lift solid cam once broken in will last a long time but gives up a ton of power....

Those heads work fine but need a ton of work and the giant chambers mean you'll never have 10-1 unless you use a small domed piston....They measure 125 cc's....

Lingenfelter was indeed the guy who pushed that combo and it was more for boats or low rpm and hp applications like a street car.

Was the BB version of the 383 small block that became very popular.

I built both.....lots of times....

No way you'll see 650 hp unless you let me at the dyno to "adjust" the input numbers ......LOL
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
What would you expect 650 HP to run in a 3720 pound car. Its always best to rate HP from MPH over 1320 at a known weight. Unfortunately I will not be able to run this engine in my car.
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
Looks like we have similar cars there Ed [URL= ]VPC[/URL] [URL= ]Peanut prt[/URL] [URL=[IMG]http ]dt s://s33.postimg.org/tb7by2iwv/Vortecpro_peanut_prt_drag_test.jpg[/IMG] [/url]]Peanut port drag test[/URL] [URL=[url=https:/ [URL= ]pp block[/URL] /postimages.org/] [/url]]dt[/URL] [URL= ]pdt[/URL] [URL= ]pph2[/URL] [URL= ]pps[/URL] [URL= ]dtsb[/URL]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VORTECPRO,
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.C.Malibu:
What's the process for con rod prep?


3/8 thumb rods, wet magged, lightened, equalized, resized, bolts, press .0015 min. 780 grams finished. [URL= ]pp rod[/URL]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VORTECPRO,
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by SCDIV1:
quote:
Originally posted by HS professor:
Am I the only one who see's 650hp on pump gas with a small flat tappet cam and 781 heads a bit optimistic Eek


I have no doubt 650 is easy with a 454, but unless those heads and cam are something really special, I don't see it. And that .060 over block better be sonic tested. I just went through 4 Blocks and not a single one would be thick enough to make good power at .060 over.

jmo ..............




No your not the only one who doubts that HP level will reached with that pile of parts.

Is it possible.....sure but not likely.....

In my engine shop days I can recall many engine builds that we dynoed.

Early to mid 1980s

We had a Go-Power static dyno.....Water brake....You preset the load and pulled it.....
No rpm sweep and read the power once the rpm stabilized.
We usually let the rpm ride slightly over where it was going to end up as it would be a bit higher than pulling up from a lower rpm.
The pulling up method is what modern dynos do.....but we liked to see the best numbers possible. It was not a real big difference....
It was a very crude machine compared to today and read torque directly from a giant sized torque meter we aquired.
It took 2 of us to take readings.....One signaled the other when the rpm stabilized and we recorded the TQ.
I input the numbers into a Texas Instruments Scientific Calculator and it spit out HP. A friend and racer set that calculator up and it used magnetic strips for the program. Had to load it every time we turned it on...
I could "fudge" the inputs and the corrected HP number would change.
I did that a few times just to get over a number.....like 500 hp for a small block.....

I can recall one 454 in particular right now...Keep in mind the parts we had to choose from back then was not anything like today....not even close....
Pretty good engine for the era.
GM aluminum heads with 13 to 1 ish compression.
Ported heads, Ported intake, maybe a Dart....1050 carb......Typical roller cam of the era.....Something around .720 lift and 270 something---280 something at .050

Made less than 750....and the car was a S/C Vega that was no flyweight and went 8.90's at low 150's for mph.....Probably 2600lbs + car with driver


A cast crank belongs in a street car......even an Eagle 4340 is a better option
3/8ths bolt rods are a complete waste of time and money....again even Eagle H beams are a better option..
A low lift solid cam once broken in will last a long time but gives up a ton of power....

Those heads work fine but need a ton of work and the giant chambers mean you'll never have 10-1 unless you use a small domed piston....They measure 125 cc's....

Lingenfelter was indeed the guy who pushed that combo and it was more for boats or low rpm and hp applications like a street car.

Was the BB version of the 383 small block that became very popular.

I built both.....lots of times....

No way you'll see 650 hp unless you let me at the dyno to "adjust" the input numbers ......LOL
150 MPH @ 2600 in my world is 684 observed crankshaft HP.

131 MPH @ 3880? = 680 observed crankshaft HP in a 30.3 baro negative 1000-1500 DA, I doubt that would make more 650 corrected dyno HP due to the fact the dyno corrects at 29.92 baro. The track numbers don't lie.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VORTECPRO,
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FootbrakeJim:
I would really be interested in seeing the dyno sheet once you get it done. Not knowing the detailed specs of the cam, my comment on the peak power RPM was based on experience with several similar combos, including a few that were/are used in footbrake cars that see regular bracket duty. All had 049/781 steel heads, with configuration ranging from bone stock, to bigger valves and significant port work done by knowledgeable guys. Compression ratios ran from 8.7:1 up to 13.7:1. Cams varied from mild hydraulic flat-tappet 234/244* .553/.578" (I/E) to Solid F.T., to Solid Rollers up to 272*/.650+". LSA all around 108*, all were installed straight-up, and then tested at +/-2*, +/-4*. All but one ended up using a 4150 on a Performer RPM intake. Only one of them exceeded 650 HP, (as you might guess, it was the highest compression, biggest solid roller cam, and the peak power was after switching to a Victor/1050 Dominator on methanol). Even THAT engine, after multiple tuning sessions and A/B/C/A/D/E/A testing with ignition timing variations from 32* up to 40*, and shift points (3-speed. TH400) tested at increments of 200 RPM, from 5800 to 7000, still ran quickest in a 3630# car with 4.56 gear and ATI converter flashing to 5,000 - with timing locked at 36* and shifting 1-2/2-3 at 6400, hitting the lights at 6800. 6600 RPM was almost identical, slower by .01 ET, same MPH. And the variance was so small with all of the different tests, that it made zero sense to spin the life out of it. The most forgiving "mild-moderate" BBC I ever built, you could miss your launch RPM or shift RPM by 200, and other than the R/T difference, it didn't hurt your run. Most of the milder combinations yielded very similar results, (with regard to consistency across different shift points and timing). This is exactly why bigger-inch engines with flatter torque curves are generally superior to small-block screamers in bracket racing.
The mildest cam, with the mildest (stock/fresh) heads, and lowest compression, ran best when shifted at 5800 RPM.
A 10.25:1 468 with 2.19/1.88 valves, Hyd F/T cam .575" 246* and an 850 double pumper only liked 200 more RPM for best ET, (6K shift point), although a 1 inch open spacer let it breathe an additional 200 RPM before laying over at 6200.
I was always limited by Valve to Piston clearance with the steel heads, never could come close to using anything over .680" lift. I suspect there may be some off-the-shelf pistons out there now that have deeper valve reliefs, (especially on the intake side), always wanted to try more cam to see if the port cross-sectional area was really the limiting factor for RPM... Would love to know Mfr & P/N if anybody is aware of one.



Here [URL= ]CH[/URL] s a dyno test of my last raced 467:

9.3 compression
228 @ .050 hyd cam
236/peanut port heads
Stamped rockers
Dual plane
850 AED
4 quart factory pan [URL= ]PP[/URL]Now if you don't like my cast crank your really not going to like my valve train...... [URL= ]2424[/URL]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VORTECPRO,
 
Posts: 107 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR All Star
Picture of 1320racer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by VORTECPRO:
Looks like we have similar cars there Ed


not even close





O'IT!

Offering 1st hand experience and advice based on track proven performance, on the web since 1998.

Support our President! Support our Troops! Support our economy! Buy American!!

"if you guys are so broke dyck you can't buy USA made parts you need to stay the fuc at home that's the bottomline" ----Tim McAmis



 
Posts: 9019 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post



  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 ... 11 
 

DragRaceResults.Com    Bracket Talk    Bracket Talk Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  Tech Talk - by Abruzzi    Production Parts 454 Bracket/Street Build

© DragRaceResults.com 2017