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Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Curtis

So that's a 488 x 158 771 SLR

MarkeMark 140 x 440 616 SLR


I know the math. What's your point?



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Posts: 2922 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You don't need to change low gear to get away from the transmission overheating or in other words the converter being below stall for 3 seconds where it multiply's torque on a scale from 1.8 to 2.4 depending on how it is set up, which in turn sheers the oil and gets the trans hot.

If you leave in low at say 4400 as it is now (1.80 low), and shift to high 3 tenths after transmission brake release, the converter will only be below stall for the time period to the shift 3 tenths of a second.

I thought you said you had me on ignore? and thus figured you didn't see this graph of how it works for an alternative approach, in order to save yourself $2000 dollars.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Rietow,
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
You don't need to change low gear to get away from the transmission overheating or in other words the converter being below stall where it multiply's torque on a scale from 1.8 to 2.4 depending on how it is set up, which in turn sheers the oil and gets the trans hot.

If you leave in low at say 4400 as it is now (1.80 low), and shift to high 3 tenths after transmission brake release, the converter will only be below stall for the time period to the shift 3 tenths of a second.

I thought you said you had me on ignore? and thus figured you didn't see this graph of how it works for an alternative approach, in order to save yourself $2000 dollars.


I took you off ignore because, although you are long winded sometimes, you haven't been quite the d1ckbag you were on YB. LOL

The reason to use the higher gear set is to keep the 4.88 in the rear so the engine pulls the way I want and has the rpm / mph I want at the finish line. I am a footbraker and the car goes 1.22-1.25 leaving in low. It is super consistent leaving in high and not quite as much leaving in low. If I killed some SLR then the consistency would be there, the heat wouldn't be a problem and I would probably be high 5.70s instead of the 6.0s as shown above. I'm low to mid 5.60s with the 1.76 low.



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Again, if you leave in low and shift to high 3 tenths after leaving, your transmission overheating problems will go away 1.76 low 4.88 gear.



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Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Again, if you leave in low and shift to high 3 tenths after leaving, your transmission overheating problems will go away 1.80 low 4.88 gear.



Mike, you are right but it's not only about heat. There is no way I'm putting a 1.80 in there either. You miss the small details of the big picture that I painted earlier. Thanks for the input though.



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Trust me I get it, you want it to think it has a 4.40 rear gear in low and a 4.88 rear gear in high. There is not a significant difference in ratio, 2000 pd short wheel base car with any power really calls for a SLR more like MarkeMark's to be smooth for consistency. An indicator (trend) of this being the case, is the results running it high gear only, as is currently the case.

You can try it 1.58 low 4.88 gear, it's a $2000 gamble though. But if you're fighting overheating the transmission. Here's another approach. Your graph will look like this. Transmission will run cool.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Rietow,
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
You won't see a radial on a dragster because a bias tire ability for traction, is its high energy losses which makes it try to form itself to the track surface when deformed. It's high energy losses makes for its higher rolling resistance for same reason, it's deformed more frequently at high or low frequency's.

The radial drag tire came about as a result of rubber technology for traction at low energy losses. So in other words it'll hook if you don't deform it or wind it up on the rim too much. The trick is to get the radial up on the tire. I do the suspension and shocks on a heads up 275 radial car for a no wheely bar class it runs in. We went one teen sixty foot in a handful of runs using a lower rear gear ratio than was thought possible and had the nitrous progressor to 100% four tenths after TB release. Which was also thought to be impossible at the time. This thing skipped the front tires 150 ft with the back of the car jacked up like a four wheel drive.


What’s the trick for not murdering the tire at the hit, but continuing to get rear separation down track?


https://youtu.be/nfY7C9iqOag



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https://youtu.be/nfY7C9iqOag



Bucky^^^^^


That's about the wildest leave I have seen. I would have sworn the way it got up on the tire it was going into smoke.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6380 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
https://youtu.be/nfY7C9iqOag



Bucky^^^^^


That's about the wildest leave I have seen. I would have sworn the way it got up on the tire it was going into smoke.


It is wild, unconventional for drag racing. I figured you'd get a kick out of that! I'm not sure how they're doing it here but we have a damper with a two way adjuster on rebound that acts in the same way on the 66 Chevy II we're running in DXP Street in a few weeks. It'll be interesting to see how this dragster radial tire M/T is developing works. If you look in the driver seat of this car, it doesn't appear to be anywhere near as violent as a dragster at the hit. Lot of G's as the boost arrives yes, but no where near as violent on the tire, from the looks of it. I think these radial cars are the quickest 1/8 door slammer on the planet now, don't quote me on that, but I think so.

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Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I worked a bit on my suspended dragster 60’ last season. There are so many ways to leave with the turbo car. Thought I could get some sub 1.0’s but it didn’t happen for me with the Hoosiers. Considering a 15” wheel with 10.5 m/t’s for next season. I tried a set for a few passes and really liked them, except for they were a little sketchy on the top end. Hoping a wing reduces that pucker factor. The m/t seemed to like a more aggressive hit’ and was less prone to coming unglued or shaking. But I only had so many test passes.
The boost come on early regardless, but it is always a question of how much boost to leave with. Just a lot of knobs to turn on this new to me combo.


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Posts: 6380 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anyone seen the trend in some of the radial cars to use very large amounts of rear separation?


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Posts: 6380 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DOTracer>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Anyone seen the trend in some of the radial cars to use very large amounts of rear separation?


Yes, i build and work on them every day.

Alot of these guys are using air cylinders on top of the coil spring to add to the separation. I don't personally agree with it, but monkey see, monkey do.

They are also switching to a 9" stroke shock on many cars.

There are some negatives to that much separation. Front universal joints don't like that much angle. They blue and come apart. The 1480 helps but the technology isn't there in the 1480 yet. This is with cars built as big tire cars where the engine/trans output is pointing at the pinion.

New builds, the engine/trans has to be mounted with the output shaft pointed more down hill to compensate for the extreme rear separation.
 
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So what would be key to making a dragster work on a radial? Dragsters are long length wise and short height wise. so difficult to transfer a lot of weight dynamically.


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Picture of CURTIS REED
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Originally posted by Bucky:
So what would be key to making a dragster work on a radial?


1000lbs hung off the back. Laughing Hard



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LOL That's one way!


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
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Originally posted by Bucky:
LOL That's one way!


Weight is the opposite of what is needed radial. That's why they run fast reacting suspension (high IC'S) to keep the shaft exiting the main body of the damper.

It's when the shaft changes direction and goes into the main body the tire gets under the car - too much weight knocking the tire out of round.

This is the fundamental problem for radials on dragsters, the tire is always trying to get under the car. Why people have a hard time doing a burnout without shake, with certain high energy loss bias slicks (Hoosiers).

When the shaft is exiting the main body of the damper, you're taking weight off the tire.

I built the trans for the car first to the 4.60's, second to the 4.50's and third to the 4.40's back when they had to have stock suspension & weigh 3350, for ten years. I told him he needed a shock with two ways on rebound & compression long before everyone started doing it.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
LOL That's one way!


Weight is the opposite of what is needed radial. That's why they run fast reacting suspension (high IC'S) to keep the shaft exiting the main body of the damper.

It's when the shaft changes direction and goes into the main body the tire gets under the car - too much weight knocking the tire out of round.

This is the fundamental problem for radials on dragsters, the tire is always trying to get under the car. Why people have a hard time doing a burnout without shake, with certain high energy loss bias slicks (Hoosiers).

When the shaft is exiting the main body of the damper, you're taking weight off the tire.

I built the trans for the car first to the 4.60's, second to the 4.50's and third to the 4.40's back when they had to have stock suspension & weigh 3350, for ten years. I told him he needed a shock with two ways on rebound & compression long before everyone started doing it.


When the shock is extending, or in other words the suspension is separating....more force is being applied downward on the tire. The car is being pushed up upon and axle is traveling toward the racing surface, adding force against the tire.
I don't know if this is what you are trying to say.


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Posts: 6380 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
LOL That's one way!


Weight is the opposite of what is needed radial. That's why they run fast reacting suspension (high IC'S) to keep the shaft exiting the main body of the damper.

It's when the shaft changes direction and goes into the main body the tire gets under the car - too much weight knocking the tire out of round.

This is the fundamental problem for radials on dragsters, the tire is always trying to get under the car. Why people have a hard time doing a burnout without shake, with certain high energy loss bias slicks (Hoosiers).

When the shaft is exiting the main body of the damper, you're taking weight off the tire.

I built the trans for the car first to the 4.60's, second to the 4.50's and third to the 4.40's back when they had to have stock suspension & weigh 3350, for ten years. I told him he needed a shock with two ways on rebound & compression long before everyone started doing it.


When the shock is extending, or in other words the suspension is separating....more force is being applied downward on the tire. The car is being pushed up upon and axle is traveling toward the racing surface, adding force against the tire.
I don't know if this is what you are trying to say.


This is true at the release of the TB, the pinion crawls the ring gear planting the tire. With a conventional bias slick & conventional drag racing suspension setup, when the tire grabs traction the damper shaft changes direction and you have weight transfer (weight of the car working against the action of the pinion crawling the ring gear) combining the weight with the force to push the tire into the ground.

With a radial you want to delay this to keep the tire round. You can either do it with two way adjusters on rebound & compression, or air up rebound to extend the shaft out of the damper, on a timer. This will also keep the nose down to avoid wheel stands and the need for wheely bars. I explained all this to the guy I did the trans for 10 years, long before this approach made it to the track on radial tires. The idea was just a little ahead of its time.

That's how it works. Very unconventional.
 
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We even valved a set of inline Ohlins TTX 36 dampers with a bunch of stroke and 2 way adjusters on rebound and compression for the car I did the transmission. And I installed them on the car.

They never went down the track. The idea was just a little ahead of it's time. At that time the $3000 price tag on the Ohlins was thought to be out of reach.

We all know though, no price is out of reach when it comes to being competitive. I think these guys are up around 5k now or somewhere in that area, maybe less but retail that's what I've been told.

We have a set on our 66 chevy II radial tire car, Ohlins of course.
 
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The 66 Chevy II crushed 4 $400 Milodon sbc oil pans doing wheelstands, before its owner finally allowed me to bolt the Ohlins on it, he couldn't wrap his head around it either.

We went 1.19 60 ft with it in a handful of runs with a bracket caliber sbc that ran 6.30's n/a. We ran 5.19 with a nitrous plate on it.

It's fairly easy with boost to prolong the tire getting under the car, with a two adjuster on rebound ramping in the power with a progressor.

This photo is one of the $400 oil pans.

 
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